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Well, I think it's a good idea.

 (Bear with me, it might take a while for me to reach my point.) 

*A while back there was some talk here on MRS about the viva/oral defence of theses and why it wasn't necessarily the best or easiest thing for Australian students (not least because we're all terrified of the concept) - although we all recognise it would be a valuable thing to have to go through.

*Today at a staff meeting the issue came up that while tenured positions had a fairly open and complex application procedure (presentations on research and teaching, interview), fractional and contract appointments usually only involved an interview.

*This made me think back a couple of months when I was part of a working group on postgrad students' views on how badly academia sucks and how to fix it cheaply ;-) I pointed out that the work one does as a postgrad is almost invariably just given to you - no-one else wants to do it, your supervisor needs help in their unit, you're the only one who knows how to use the equipment and so on. And soon there you are: approaching thirty, PhD in hand, years of teaching experience - but you've never applied for a job. I don't know about you, but the concept of that frightens me. Get through a fractional appointment and you still only have an Academic portfolio and interview experience.

*For me the most valuable assessment in the Teaching Internship is/was the Teaching Folio (although I think the info talk should have been earlier) - the thing itself  will be useful later on, and it's really good to have it evaluated by outsiders before your career is on the line.

So, here is my proposal to fix/bring the best out of all of these things.

Instead of a viva, each postgraduate student should be required to - at the end of their candidature, probably after submitting - give a presentation on their research and teaching, much like you would when applying for a tenured position.

It has similar benefits to a viva: okay, the world leaders in the field may not be in the lecture theater, but plenty of other smart people would be, and you get to articulate your research to a truly generalist, intelligent audience.

As an added bonus, you will be able to get feedback on your presentation from staff, peers and anyone else who wanders in. At the end of the process, you have the two quite daunting presentations you need in order to apply for a "real" job all practised, fed(?)back, so as soon as you see an interesting job offer you've already got half the application procedure sorted. 

At the end of each semester, the (insert admin body here - school? faculty? GRS?) can book out a lecture theatre for a couple of days, other postgrads and staff are encouraged/required to attend, completing students give their presentations and have questions asked and praise ladled upon them in turn, GRS caters the tea breaks and we all assemble at the Club afterwards for jubilatory drinkies.

What do you think?

Published Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:07 PM by Sanna
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Wednesday, November 07, 2007 12:45 PM by Tama

# re: Well, I think it's a good idea.

That's edging into a focus on the PhD as an apprenticeship as much as a research programme - which begs very interesting questions indeed!

Your idea's an interesting one - of course, it would be a challenge to find a decent set of hypothetical jobs that candidates would tailor their presentation toward.

Wednesday, November 07, 2007 12:48 PM by Marnie

# re: Well, I think it's a good idea.

You might be interested in this article

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,22324208-12332,00.html

I've had quite a few comments from particpants in my research on this and related topics too. One Canadian scientist I spoke to who did her Phd in Australia could not believe we don't do oral defenses here and felt it was one reason Australian qualifications were (in her opinion) internationally infereior. I'm considering, if I have time, including discusion of this issue in the report. xmarnie

Thursday, November 08, 2007 1:01 PM by robyn.owens

# re: Well, I think it's a good idea.

I think it's a brilliant idea, of course, which is why we tried to introduce the concept of a Completion Seminar last year, but narrowly missed getting it through the Board. I'll be trying again soon. The reason it didn't go through is because some parts of the university thought it would generate an additional work burdon that they just couldn't cope with.

I've just returned from a national meeting of Deans of Graduate Schools where I have discovered that a number already have oral examinations as an option, or optional in some areas (UQ), or compulsory if required by the examiners (ANU). A number of other universities have moved to the compulsory completion seminar idea - e.g., Melbourne.

The idea of the Completion Seminar would be to give it a few weeks before submitting the thesis for examination, in case you receive relevant feedback that may be required for clarification of your ideas, thus facilitating the examination.

A report from the School would have to be submitted, saying that a satisfactory completion seminar had occurred before the thesis is sent out to examination.

Friday, November 09, 2007 1:22 PM by Sanna

# re: Well, I think it's a good idea.

Thanks for the feedback (I particularly enjoy enticing marnie to comment!).

The impression I get about the viva overseas is that often it is a formality - your thesis has already been marked, and at best the quality of your presentation might change your mark (Distinction to no-Distinction or vice versa) rather than pass status. One of the comments to the above article said that the viva was a way to establish how much a student had relied on their supervisors' ghost writing - but in reality, if your supervisor is going to cover your back in writing the thesis, they're damn well going to coach your presentation and seek friendly "opponents" as well, so I don't see the viva as guaranteeing higher quality and degree of independence in research as such. However,I am willing to accept that (particularly in unis where the viva is part of assessment;-) it is *seen* as a sign of quality of content.

I like the idea of a Completion Seminar, because it has the one thing I really do appreciate as being the benefit of a viva: the presentation aspect, having to articulate your research, think on your feet when you get questions at the end and yes - it is preparation for the job market. However, rather than giving the final presentation in a seminar room during the standard discipline group meeting time to two staff members and three friends (like msot WIPs, for example) I think it should have some of the celebration and ceremony of the viva attached as well.

On Robyn's point about some schools not knowing how to handle the work load... Sigh. It must be a real pain for them, having to actually *develop* their students' skills and competitive edge when all they really want is for them to finish their theses quickly, publish under the school's byline and show their immense gratitude by donating money to the university from their undoubtedly hefty casual tutoring wages (remember,they were never really prepared to apply for proper jobs, so where else would they go)...

In our final reflection one of the interns said that taking part in the program had made him feel more connected to the unviersity. That's what PD-type programs do: make people realise they're appreciated and then they appreciate you back. If you need any help for the next proposal document, Robyn, I'll do my very best to draw them a nice picture about "re-ci-pro-ci-ty"

;-)

Friday, November 09, 2007 4:49 PM by wayne.griffiths

# re: Well, I think it's a good idea.

Getting back to your original proposal, regarding speaking about both research and teaching, I would ask - what if the student is not looking for employment as a lecturer and thus has not done any (or limited) teaching as a postgrad student? They are not likely to be able to speak about much on the teaching side, are they? Teaching is still only an optional component here (as opposed to Sweden, where I believe 20% of your time must be spent teaching) so in my opinion, a presentation/seminar about what teaching you've done would have to be optional as well.

Thursday, February 21, 2008 2:11 PM by Brian

# re: Well, I think it's a good idea.

Reading through this post and the comments is interesting because down here at the back of the uni in Animal Biology we do exactly what Sanna is suggesting.

During the course of a PhD or masters programme each student is required to present one seminar (open to whoever would like to attend) each year and also to present a final seminar when they are approaching submission.

They are a very useful thing to do as well.  At your proposal seminar you get lots of feedback from other members of the school about your plans for your experiments, the realistic nature (or otherwise) of your goals etc.  Annual seminars are a good opportunity to rehearse seminars for conferences and to get feedback on how they can be improved.

The completion seminar is also very useful as it forces you to get all of your ideas together is such a way that they can be communicated to people who are not in your field.

I just assumed that the rest of the uni was doing things in a similar manner... I can't understand why it isn't!

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